Education for the greater good, and why some people are idiots

[Sal Atticum]

In a recent article in the HPR, Ed Raymond poked rich people with a stick to see if he could convince them to give more money to the greater good.  I doubt that he's having much luck, but I think I can agree with the sentiments without having to agree with any particular 'liberal' or 'communist' doctrine.  If we make this a moral war for the future of our country we may be able to make some headway, just the way that anti-choice (it sounds so much dirtier than 'pro-life,' doesn't it?) folks use Down's Syndrome babies on the side of the highway.  We don't need laws to change the way people think, because they won't.  We just need people to change the way people think, without laws.  Utopian ideals, sure, but they give us a starting point.

That's all an aside though.  This is what I really wanted to talk about, the following comment by KevindF:

The greed is coming from the teachers’ labor collectives who get full time compensation for part-time efforts and little accountability.

Agree or disagree with unions all you want, but don't tell me that public school teachers don't work full time.  They may not be teaching your kids full time, but they're grading assignments, making up new lessons, doing research, and dealing with bureaucracy.  Don't tell me that they are not held accountable.  I can relate some anecdotes of poor teaching during my life, but that does not a rule make.  If you can show that private school teachers are better teachers because they are paid more, and that they work full time for all that extra money, or put more effort in, then you would have a leg to stand on.  This is like saying that just because someone has a Ph.D. it makes them a better teacher because they are paid more.  Sad to say, it isn't true.

Any time someone whinges about how sucky public school teachers are, I want to stick them in a classroom with 25 or 30 kids and make them try to teach to the best of their ability.  Then I want them to grade the assignments they did that day, make up new ones for the next day, and do it all over again for a week.  Then we'll see who is overpaid for their supposed part-time job.

[pmp6nl]

Teachers are underpaid in my opinion and work very hard (yes I am making generalities).  I once taught a class and was surprised how much time it takes to do everything... wow.  If we want to continue the success of our nation we really need to concentrate on teaching the youth... basically at whatever cost.

The whole argument that private schools are better than public... wow dont get me started on that.

[Sal Atticum]

Please, get started

In my opinion, schools are one of the most important reasons to pay taxes.  If you don't educate people, you get crappy employees who can't read or do simple arithmetic.  You get people on the street (and voting for elections!) who don't understand historical context, have no reason why the Constitution is important, think the world is all about them, and who probably don't give a rat's ass about anything anyway because they've never been exposed to the rest of the world.

Calling the people who teach your kids, or your sister's kids, or you, greedy layabouts is (I say again) an idiocy.  Would you like to change that?  Go for it.  Go cut teacher pay so they have to get a second job to survive and see how that affects your kids education.  You can also dump all those things they use in the classrooms: books, crayons, computers for high schools, after school activities, etc. ('cause hey, if the teachers are busy at their second job, they can't coach hockey or help out with the theatre club!).  Watch your kid come home and not be able to divide because she gets lost in that classroom of 45 students and can't get the teacher's attention.  You can keep on blaming the school system like Bush--take away money from schools that score poorly and prevent them from improving--or you can support your local school system, help out the teachers who are barely above the poverty level (maybe even the same teachers who taught you and helped you get the job that pays for that expensive-ass home you hate paying property taxes on) and get this country back where it needs to be.  It's every individuals choice.

[Red]

A few quick thoughts.

The rich are the only ones paying into the greater good.  The top 1% pay 40% of taxes, top 25 pay 80%, and top 50 pay 97% of taxes.  Stop bashing corporations and the rich.  They pay for your streets, schools, bs social programs, and much of your college tuition.

Does Infant Mutilator sound as dirty as anti-choice?  How about irresponsible baby killer as opposed to right to life?

I will tell you teachers don’t work full time.  I will tell every person I see that teachers don’t work full time because the cold hard fact is that teachers DON’T WORK FULL TIME.  Not only do teachers work on average less hours in a week, they work 30% less days in a year.  Most people get two weeks off a year, while teachers get 3 to 4 months off each year.  If you really think they are working the same amount as other Americans, maybe you are the idiot.

Stop perpetuating this lie that teachers don’t earn a living wage.  The average income in the state of North Dakota is around $19000.  According to USA today the average teacher salary is $35,441 for 9 (really more like eight) months of work.  Annualized that is $47000, more then twice the average income of the rest of us.  $47000 a year in a job that requires no innovation, no research, no improvement, very little performance reviews, and has one of if not the highest job security.  Sounds like a dream to most people, especially teachers, who also happen to have an average 5% absentee rate during the work year.  A number that is much higher then the average US worker.

“Any time someone whinges about how sucky public school teachers are, I want to stick them in a classroom with 25 or 30 kids and make them try to teach to the best of their ability.  Then I want them to grade the assignments they did that day, make up new ones for the next day, and do it all over again for a week.  Then we'll see who is overpaid for their supposed part-time job.”

What is sad is that none of those things you just mentioned require anything more then just the foresight to read the chapter before you regurgitate it, and then slide a bubble sheet through a machine.  And lets face it, grade school teachers use the same tests and lesson plans every year, with minor changes being added along the way.  How do I know this, I asked.  Hell half the time I get a syllabi from a professor it will be dated 2 or 3 years ago, and they have me manually change the dates for the tests.  Somehow I doubt an accountant would keep their job if they submitted annual reporting numbers for 2008 dated 2004.

“Watch your kid come home and not be able to divide because she gets lost in that classroom of 45 students and can't get the teacher's attention.”

Are you making the case against college?  I have 3 times that amount in 2 of my courses.

[Red]

On another note, the sight looks great.  All the minor additions and changes really dress things up and the ever changing banner up top looks pretty awesome.  Nice work.

[Sal Atticum]

On another note, the sight looks great.  All the minor additions and changes really dress things up and the ever changing banner up top looks pretty awesome.  Nice work.

Thanks, we're working hard to get this place to be a place you want to hang out!
Now back to the arguing and the name calling

A few quick thoughts.

The rich are the only ones paying into the greater good.  The top 1% pay 40% of taxes, top 25 pay 80%, and top 50 pay 97% of taxes.  Stop bashing corporations and the rich.  They pay for your streets, schools, bs social programs, and much of your college tuition.

I don't mean to bash the rich, or corporations.  I'm not here to advocate Communism, because it's everyone's right to make the money they want to make.  Just a note, that the rest of us are still paying, even if the rich are paying for most of it.  I don't have a solution here.

Does Infant Mutilator sound as dirty as anti-choice?  How about irresponsible baby killer as opposed to right to life?

I most assuredly was not trying to make my point about who is right in the abortion debate--I was just saying that playing to people's morals instead of to people's respect for the law may be a way to change things in this case.

I will tell you teachers don’t work full time.  I will tell every person I see that teachers don’t work full time because the cold hard fact is that teachers DON’T WORK FULL TIME.  Not only do teachers work on average less hours in a week, they work 30% less days in a year.  Most people get two weeks off a year, while teachers get 3 to 4 months off each year.  If you really think they are working the same amount as other Americans, maybe you are the idiot.

Okay, let's qualify this.  Teacher's don't work every day of the year, but every day they do work, they work as much or more than the average.  My arguments refer to time spent out of a workday.

Stop perpetuating this lie that teachers don’t earn a living wage.  The average income in the state of North Dakota is around $19000.  According to USA today the average teacher salary is $35,441 for 9 (really more like eight) months of work.  Annualized that is $47000, more then twice the average income of the rest of us.  $47000 a year in a job that requires no innovation, no research, no improvement, very little performance reviews, and has one of if not the highest job security.  Sounds like a dream to most people, especially teachers, who also happen to have an average 5% absentee rate during the work year.  A number that is much higher then the average US worker.

Standing in a graduate student's shoes, I can't argue that $19,000 a year isn't a living wage.  Anyway, why are you annualizing the average teaching salary?  They don't get $40,000 a year because they don't get $40,000 a year, no matter how you cut it, because you can't claim they don't work full time and then claim they get paid the equivalent of working full-time.  Those two or three months "off," they aren't collecting any money from the government, and most have other jobs to get them through the summer.  I don't disbelieve your absentee statistic, but I'm curious what the average is for the rest of the workforce in this country.

“Any time someone whinges about how sucky public school teachers are, I want to stick them in a classroom with 25 or 30 kids and make them try to teach to the best of their ability.  Then I want them to grade the assignments they did that day, make up new ones for the next day, and do it all over again for a week.  Then we'll see who is overpaid for their supposed part-time job.”

What is sad is that none of those things you just mentioned require anything more then just the foresight to read the chapter before you regurgitate it, and then slide a bubble sheet through a machine.

Does this teach them?  All personal experience aside (since we're both in high education, IIRC), do you think the average student (elementary school or high school) will learn by being lectured to and then made to take a bubble sheet test, over and over until they fail or until the teacher passes them out of annoyance?  I'm stretching, I admit, and I'm not down with all the handholding I see going on in classrooms in recent years, but I think there needs to be a certain amount of connection between teacher and student for the average student to learn.  Furthermore, if all we needed teachers for was to lecture and give out bubble sheets, why bother having real people at all?  Why not just dump the kids in a room, turn on the TV, lock the door and hope they learn something?

  And lets face it, grade school teachers use the same tests and lesson plans every year, with minor changes being added along the way.  How do I know this, I asked.  Hell half the time I get a syllabi from a professor it will be dated 2 or 3 years ago, and they have me manually change the dates for the tests.  Somehow I doubt an accountant would keep their job if they submitted annual reporting numbers for 2008 dated 2004.

I accept that teachers do that, although professors making you change dates on a syllabus handout is really low.  I just don't equate having a few dates wrong with having your numbers wrong in your annual report--it doesn't seem as important to me.

“Watch your kid come home and not be able to divide because she gets lost in that classroom of 45 students and can't get the teacher's attention.”

Are you making the case against college?  I have 3 times that amount in 2 of my courses.

Nah, I'm following the customs of this country, which says you're an adult at 18.  Once you're an adult, it's not my job as a teacher to hold your hand.  You've learned all the lower-level stuff, now it's time to use that knowledge to learn more, and to have the ability to do so with less direction.  If you have a job, nobody is around to make sure you do your work right every time--they just expect that you can do it, and I think the same applies to college courses.

I know this is a really complex issue, and I'm sure that there is no single answer (be it raising teacher salaries, or putting computers in classrooms, or having smaller classes) that will help our schools produce intelligent, worldly, thoughtful people.  What I'd really like to argue for is more of an "it takes a village" mentality when it comes to education in this country, rather than one where we send the kids off to school and expect the teachers to do all the work because we're paying them to do that.  This type of shift would take a vast change in popular opinion in order to occur (something on the order of people fearing "what will the neighbors think?" if they don't help teach their own kids) and a change in business structure.  Maybe I'm naive, but that's what I'm thinking about.