Poll

What do you think about responsible Concealed Carry Permit holders carrying concealed weapons at school.

For Ban
2 (20%)
Against Ban
5 (50%)
I don't Care
1 (10%)
I don't know
1 (10%)
Comedy Option
1 (10%)

Total Members Voted: 10

Author Topic: Those evil damn guns on campus  (Read 21453 times)

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Offline Red

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Re: Those evil damn guns on campus
« Reply #20 on: March 06, 2008, 09:58:54 AM »
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Offline pmp6nl

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Re: Those evil damn guns on campus
« Reply #21 on: March 06, 2008, 03:16:07 PM »
That video proves nothing. They take a few cases and overgeneralize them.

I am not suggesting that we need to take all guns away, I am just saying simply allowing guns on campus will not allow you to say that it is safer.
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Offline Red

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Re: Those evil damn guns on campus
« Reply #22 on: March 06, 2008, 04:53:29 PM »
Backed up by what evidence? 
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Offline ajekt

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Re: Those evil damn guns on campus
« Reply #23 on: March 06, 2008, 04:56:39 PM »
Backed up by what evidence? 

I dont know about him, but I would like some actual facts.  Your video doesnt prove anything in my mind.
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Offline zman

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Re: Those evil damn guns on campus
« Reply #24 on: March 06, 2008, 04:58:10 PM »
Oh fun a gun argement!

I am thinking the poll question is a bit bias: "What do you think about responsible Concealed Carry Permit holders carrying concealed weapons at school." 

But I dont care either way, I just dont want to get shot on campus.

Offline pmp6nl

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Re: Those evil damn guns on campus
« Reply #25 on: March 06, 2008, 05:44:03 PM »
Quote
State universities to arm police with assault rifles

Toby Phillips
The Arizona Republic
Mar. 5, 2008 12:00 AM
Police departments at Arizona's three universities plan to arm their officers with military-style assault rifles within the next year, officials said Tuesday.

The new rifles would give campus police officers long-range shooting capabilities, allowing them to hit targets at the end of long hallways or atop tall buildings, officials said.

Arizona State University will be the first of the three schools to use the weapons. Officers there will be trained to use the rifles in the next few months, said ASU police spokesman Cmdr. Jim Hardina.

   


Officers will undergo 40 hours of training before using the weapons.

"We don't want to just throw rifles out there," Hardina said.

Eight officers at the University of Arizona will get similar training before a rifle program launches there in four to five months, officials said. Northern Arizona University officials said a rifle program was in the works, although a specific start date was not immediately available.

ASU has bought four of the new rifles at $700 each, and is looking to find money to purchase four more. One challenge the department is facing: finding ammunition for the rifles. Increased military operations mean that the police department and the armed forces were competing for the same ammo, Hardina said.

Assault rifles are useful in "active shooter" situations in which there may not be time to wait for a SWAT team to arrive on campus, officials said.

They added that the plan has been in the works for a couple of years and is not related to recent shootings on college campuses, including last year's massacre of 32 students at Virginia Tech by a student with a history of mental illness.

Pistols that campus officers currently use aren't ideal for long shots, said Sgt. Eugene Mejia, UA Police Department spokesman.

"Beyond 50 feet, you lose a lot of accuracy," Mejia said. "You can take a longer, more accurate shot (with the rifles)."

ASU officers will store the new guns in their patrol cars while on duty, taking them out only when a situation warrants their use, Hardina said.

Jan Kelly, an ASU faculty member, said she understands why officers have a need for weapons with increased capabilities. She said she feels comfortable with campus officers' access to the rifles.

"I don't think the police are going to target students," Kelly said. "If they (the guns) aren't visible, most won't really know about them.

"Hopefully we'll never know about them."
http://www.azcentral.com/community/tempe/articles/0305asuguns0305.html#
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Offline Red

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Re: Those evil damn guns on campus
« Reply #26 on: March 06, 2008, 06:11:38 PM »


I don’t know about him, but I would like some actual facts.  Your video doesnt prove anything in my mind.

Really?  So contradict it with some facts.  Show me some information about how when Utah allowed students to carry weapons on campus they saw a huge increase in gun violence on campus.  Show me some information about how a person with a conceal carry permit is NOT 5 times less likely to commit a crime than a regular non violent American.  Find information that doesn't show that you can't keep guns out of the hands of criminals.  
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Offline Meest

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Re: Those evil damn guns on campus
« Reply #27 on: March 07, 2008, 08:20:53 AM »
Everyone has an opinion, much like we all have assholes too.

Debates like this never change anyones view. just re-enforce their own in their head.

There are two sides to an issue that's up for debate, and like all debates that I know of. No one is ever a winner.

Stating facts is great. If I had my opinion I wouldn't have an issue with someone carrying a gun anyway... Not like its stoped people from shooting up campus' yet. We're all going to die at some time, and put our lives on the line every day. I would much rather be able to do what I want, if I would ever want to do it, than have to jump around red tape that was put up, because someone didn't "Think it would have a point"

Here's a question. Why create laws to block people from doing something when the one's that cause the issue are the minority? That even goes down to basic issue's like the "NO SKATEBOARDS" sign up at the ralph.... A few bad apples spoil the whole basket, why not just pick those bad one's out? Its easier to dump them all out, then to do through and find the 2 or 3 bad one's. Its an act of laziness.

Offline Sal Atticum

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Re: Those evil damn guns on campus
« Reply #28 on: March 07, 2008, 10:05:53 AM »
If we're going to get into becoming a self-governing society, I'm with you there.  I would much rather trust people to carry guns and not let them be used in a potentially dangerous situation (such as drunk kids in a dorm room), or to not be asses to people when they are skateboarding (I think signs like that are idiotic) than have to make more and more rules for people to follow.  I just don't think more rules are the answer, but people today just seem to be lazy and afraid of getting their hands dirty for some reason.

If we were a responsible society, I think this would work out.  I'm not saying that gun owners in particular are not responsible, I think "society at large" is.  I think there should be gun education from day one in schools, because education is the only way that people are going to understand that not everyone with a gun is a raving lunatic AND how to act around a gun and what to do in the situation occurs (hopefully never again) when someone gets ahold of a gun and has the potential to harm someone else (be it on purpose or by accident).

It comes down to us being responsible as a whole, not us asking for more "protection" from the government.  I probably said it earlier in this thread, but what bothers me about having guns on campus is not the gun owners, it's the people who live with or near the gun owners who have only ever fired a weapon in a video game.  All I'm saying is that accidents happen, no matter how careful we are, especially where a lot of alcohol is consumed.  I think that there would be fewer accidents if firearm safety education were the rule rather than the exception (yes, I know we're in ND, but I'm thinking on a nationwide scale).
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Offline Red

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Re: Those evil damn guns on campus
« Reply #29 on: March 07, 2008, 01:30:52 PM »
Good post.

I did want to comment on this part.
All I'm saying is that accidents happen, no matter how careful we are, especially where a lot of alcohol is consumed.  I think that there would be fewer accidents if firearm safety education were the rule rather than the exception (yes, I know we're in ND, but I'm thinking on a nationwide scale).

Currently there are guns allowed in campus apartments, and lets not pretend that frat houses are gun free.  Currently there are no problems.  I just do not see it getting worse.  The idea of concealed carry is to be concealed.  My friends don't even know I own a gun.  I think if people like pmp6nl and ajekt obtained a hand gun, they may feel different about the situation.  I have been on both sides, I doubt they have.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2008, 01:31:40 PM by Red »
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Offline Sal Atticum

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Re: Those evil damn guns on campus
« Reply #30 on: March 07, 2008, 03:23:54 PM »
You make an absolutely clear point with that.  I guess I can't just assume that the dorms are gun free either.  In this case (since we're talking about UND), I think I'm on your side when it comes to not fixing what's not broken.  What do the powers that be say when this argument is used?

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Offline pmp6nl

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Re: Those evil damn guns on campus
« Reply #31 on: March 07, 2008, 04:06:13 PM »
Red why are you generalizing and assuming I dont have a gun and I feel this way or that way about it?  Just because I posted some articles and said that a video on Youtube did not convince me of anything does not mean I am against gun ownership or anything.

Quote
I think if people like pmp6nl and ajekt
Like what?  How are we so different?

I could say if people like Red werent so "I have to have a gun because its my right" then they might feel different about the situation.

Thats just ridiculous to assume something like that based on a few posts... and for your information you are way off on how I feel about the subject.

I have to leave for a meeting, but I will provide a much more detailed response later.

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Offline Red

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Re: Those evil damn guns on campus
« Reply #32 on: March 08, 2008, 01:24:47 AM »
Just remember that this topic is about concealed carry on campus.  The two of you have made it clear that you do not support it.  I look forward to your explanation.   
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Offline pmp6nl

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Re: Those evil damn guns on campus
« Reply #33 on: March 08, 2008, 01:27:53 PM »
First of all this topic has included many points about guns,  not just guns on campus.  I still do not see how you are able to claim I made my stance clear that I don’t support guns on campus or whatever you are claiming?

Let me ask you a few questions.  Do you want to allow guns on campus because you say its your right, because it could help you stop a madman on campus, or both?

The question about your rights has been discussed above.  Just out of curiosity, do you propose that there should be no limits to where guns are allowed?  Are you suggesting that allowing students to have guns on campus will reduce the number of deaths on campus as the result of guns or other weapons?  Do you feel you are vulnerable to attack since you are not allowed to carry your gun on campus?  Have you ever heard of anyone getting accidentally shot?  How much gun training have you had?  How about training relating to mental disorders, negotiation, and tracking, among others?  Do you think the issue is as simple as someone bringing a gun to campus and shooting people, or do you think there are many underlying issues? 

Again, before you make claims I am not the one that is saying ban all guns.  I am saying if guns are allowed then something different needs to be done.  Of course this is an opinion I am presenting.  As was said above, arguments like this don’t often end up convincing one person one way or another.

I await your response so I can gather a better idea as to what exactly you want.
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Offline JakeJZG

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Re: Those evil damn guns on campus
« Reply #34 on: March 10, 2008, 02:39:58 AM »
Unless one wishes to ban CCW universally, one cannot logically or rationally disagree with the extension of CCW onto college campuses.
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Offline Sal Atticum

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Re: Those evil damn guns on campus
« Reply #35 on: March 10, 2008, 11:23:35 AM »
Unless one wishes to ban CCW universally, one cannot logically or rationally disagree with the extension of CCW onto college campuses.

Why don't we allow weapons into courthouses?  Why don't we allow them on airplanes?  Why do we have these exceptions, but not one involving college campuses?

Just curious.
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Offline Red

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Re: Those evil damn guns on campus
« Reply #36 on: March 11, 2008, 08:19:33 AM »
In an airplane they do their very best to make sure that Nobody has a gun, and access to an aircraft by an undesirable, especially during flight, is nearly impossible.  If everyone was screened to come to class like they were to get on an airplane then there may be a case against concealed carry. 
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Offline JakeJZG

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Re: Those evil damn guns on campus
« Reply #37 on: March 23, 2008, 01:14:08 PM »
If you are to suggest that, I would suggest just enslaving the entire populous against guns.  Why not?  I don't mean to throw a red herring or anything, I just think that perhaps disarming the law abiding citizens would be beneficial if you wanted to break the law and start shooting.

You know, since making it illegal to have a gun doesn't stop those willing to break the law.

Those that follow the law tend not to abuse guns or be the problem.

Also - if the person is deemed stable enough to carry a concealed firearm in public society, why not on college campuses?

It wouldn't cause disruptions:  It does not at the schools it's already allowed, and no one would know about them - since they are concealed.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2008, 01:15:32 PM by JakeJZG »
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Offline Sal Atticum

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Re: Those evil damn guns on campus
« Reply #38 on: April 06, 2008, 06:01:17 PM »
I just read about guns on campuses in SD here.

Interesting.
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Offline Sal Atticum

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Re: Those evil damn guns on campus
« Reply #39 on: April 16, 2008, 03:08:50 PM »
http://undcr.com/?p=201

No references, oddly.
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