Author Topic: Racism...  (Read 10431 times)

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Offline Plantains

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Racism...
« on: April 24, 2008, 11:27:46 AM »
So for those of you who know me. I am the biggest advocate for equality.

I often get into a debate with people over chosen words, specifically "hateful" words. Words that may have a "racist" meaning, or words that may offend a certain individual or group because of the choice or the lifestyle they lead.

My stance sits largely on the principle that... hmm... how to word this.

By using these words people label you as tactless or being a racist. But what about by specifically not using these words? If you are a true proponent of equality in the truest sense of it all, wouldn't eliminating these said "hateful" words from your vocabulary actually make you acknowledge that racism exists and that you aren't willing to do anything about it? I'm not suggesting using any of these words hatefully. But I use a fair amount of "profanity" towards most all of my friends in good fun. Not in any way derrogatory, but more as a way to express myself better. I do however excersize tact which I feel HAS to be used. Reason being... there's no way you could use that "language" appropriately in any and all situations, just the same as there are, for example APA and MLA formats for citation. One is appropriate in one circumstance, the other in a different circumstance.

To touch on a point that South Park made in their episode regarding AA. If you drink heavily... isn't your life just as controlled as someone who doesn't drink AT ALL? Moderation and responsibility.

How can we expect to ever have a society in which racial equality is prominent unless we all realize that by NOT saying the "no no words" we are in fact... perpetuating the cycle?

Discuss...
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Offline pmp6nl

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Re: Racism...
« Reply #1 on: April 24, 2008, 06:28:03 PM »
humm.

Well by not using the words you are actually doing a little something about it.  You are personally avoiding being racist in that sense, also if you use the words then you are symbolizing that you at least think its acceptable to say them.  I think by not using them then its a step, though much more can be done.

But I do see your point.

While I would love to see the day where everyone is equal, racial or otherwise, I just dont see that happening anytime soon, if at all.  There is just too much hate in the world and there will likely always be someone that will feel this or that way about something which will could lead to inequality.

...
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Offline Plantains

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Re: Racism...
« Reply #2 on: April 24, 2008, 06:50:07 PM »
I agree... but then who decides how the words get interpreted?

If I say them with the intention of them not being hateful, or derogatory, etc. But someone receives them as such... who is right?
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Offline pmp6nl

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Re: Racism...
« Reply #3 on: April 24, 2008, 07:25:12 PM »
I guess I would think both people.  If you are saying something that you know is racist then you are at fault.  However, sometimes people may not know what they are saying is harmful.  I am not saying that is an excuse, but hopefully they will learn from the situation and not do the same thing in the future.
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Offline Sal Atticum

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Re: Racism...
« Reply #4 on: April 24, 2008, 07:41:13 PM »
I think that in a perfect world, if you said something unintentionally derogatory, the other person would be able to ask you what you meant and not have anything to worry about.  I don't think this can happen in most places right now.

This may be one of the few areas where intent itself matters a lot more than the words that are said.  I've never been one to get too mad at words, or symbols, but there are those who do.  This isn't anything against them, perhaps being fair-skinned just means I'm not attacked racially.  I can't say what I would do if I had put up with slurs my entire life that were based on something I had no control over (I've been slurred for other reasons, but mostly for my actions, not for my genetic or cultural makeup).

I agree that "not saying the words" is not a complete solution to the problem of people not getting along.  I think the idea that "watching what we say" is counter to real communication.  If we're so worried about how not to offend the other person, I don't think we can ever have a real discussion (and counter to what has been occasionally suggested, I don't try to pick fights with everyone I meet, for the record).

You could follow Dumbledore, I suppose, who suggested that "fear of the word increases fear of the thing itself."  If we shy away from racially- or culturally-charged words, we perhaps increase the trepidation with which we would approach someone of another race or culture.  I, for one, don't try to discuss the Sioux nickname with Native students because I don't know how they are going to react, or even if they think that by bringing it up as a white person I am automatically pro-nickname (please note that I'm not suggesting that all Native students are anti-nickname, but that I simply don't know what to expect).

I am sometimes unable to communicate well with people from other cultures; I think this stems more from my natural shyness than from any racial overtones, but I really don't know.  Does this make me racist, or just aware?

This topic seems to be coming up a lot recently, and I'm happy to discuss it.  Whatever the case is, I think that all people (including myself of course) compartmentalize people based on past experiences.  Sometimes this is based on rational thought, and other times not.  I hope that someday we can learn to realize the difference and adjust ourselves accordingly (and by that, I mean the whole "do unto others" thing).
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Offline Plantains

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Re: Racism...
« Reply #5 on: April 25, 2008, 01:13:21 AM »
I guess I would think both people.  If you are saying something that you know is racist then you are at fault.  However, sometimes people may not know what they are saying is harmful.  I am not saying that is an excuse, but hopefully they will learn from the situation and not do the same thing in the future.

But to use a pertinent example. "Fighting Sioux" is a racist phrase. I mean... that is the entire point that the groups that oppose the name are suggesting isn't it? But on the contrary, the groups that are for the "Fighting Sioux" nickname I would imagine aren't for it because it is a hateful or racist nickname? So then, by using the name in the past (prior to it TRULY being contested as "racist") the school, fans, alumnus were not racist, but now that some groups have spoken out that they fell that it is racist, that changes the meaning?

What I'm saying is on say the Tuesday before it was decided that it was racist it wasn't racist, and the Tuesday after it was racist?

I would like to point out, this topic wasn't brought up to debate the Fighting Sioux nickname, it just serves as a relevant example.

On my original point then, if in fact the Fighting Sioux nickname has been deemed racist, what happens? I mean, when the nickname gets changed do we just never use the Fighting Sioux nickname again? And isn't this acknowledging that racism exists and that we are unwilling to compromise and have the understanding to stop it?

Beek it's interesting that you bring up Dumbledore. While I've not read or seen any of the Harry Potter books/series, I recall the "controversy" when Rowlings pointed out that Dumbledore was gay. Note, not a homosexual... but gay. I thought that it was interesting that the characters sexuality became such an issue.

Hmmm
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Offline Sal Atticum

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Re: Racism...
« Reply #6 on: April 25, 2008, 08:49:50 AM »
Don't even get me started on Rowlings giving out "secret" information that she never put into the books.  While she may have thought of Dumbledore as gay while she was writing, she never put it down on paper. This just seems like grandstanding to me for more publicity--she could change her mind tomorrow, and all the fans would be like "yeah yeah yeah! whatever you say JK!"  I'm not big on authors "filling in the gaps" verbally--because once you've released the books into the wild, you can't go back and change things like that.

Personally I never cared whether Dumbledore was gay or not.  I just found out about it a few weeks ago, and I don't see what all the fuss is about.
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Offline Plantains

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Re: Racism...
« Reply #7 on: April 25, 2008, 09:36:53 AM »
I couldn't agree with you more on that.

That's sort of how I felt about Star Wars 7/8/9. Or "The Young Indiana Jones". They all just seem like ploys. Everything is totally different. Why not just come up with a new series that sort of ties into it.

*NERD ALERT*

With the Star Wars series this is what Lucas did with the Jedi Knight computer game series. Its sort of like a Co-Story. Not a continuation so to speak. Anyone could play and not know that SW back story, but if you are in fact a total loser (like myself) you notice the subtle connections.

With JKR deciding at some random point that Dumbledore was a homosexual is essentially meaningless. It would be the same as you or I claiming that Chewbacca is a homosexual. Just irrelevant.

Not to mention... I feel as though JKR is a bit of a whacko. Seeing some of her past history I feel like there's more to her than just "coming from the poor side of town"?
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Offline pmp6nl

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Re: Racism...
« Reply #8 on: April 25, 2008, 08:54:51 PM »
I agree that we should not just be watching our words, but I assume most people know some select words/phrases that are racist and dont need to be used just to cause problems.

Very good point Guardrail.  I guess my statement was suppose to be more relating to someone saying something that is racist purposely, but I do see your points and it will give me something to think about.

damn you for making me think...
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Offline Sal Atticum

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Re: Racism...
« Reply #9 on: May 08, 2008, 09:24:50 AM »
This may make me seem cold and heartless, but what I am about to say only applies to a small portion of racist actions.  I think this country (in addition to fostering more parental education) needs to take a step back and remember the old "sticks and stones" rhyme.  Yes, I know it's not appropriate in all situations--if someone is being physically harassed, they should be able to get help.  If they are discriminated against because of their race, they should be able to get help.  If they are bothered by people relentlessly because of their race, they should be able to get help (albeit, this is a more difficult situation).  However, if one person on the street says something to you--let it roll off.  This worked for me in junior high, and if a 12-year-old can relax enough to ignore certain things, you would think an adult would [of course, you would also think an adult wouldn't stoop low enough to insult someone just because of some negative stereotype, but that's a different issue]).

I'm not saying that we give tacit approval to racism.  I'm saying just don't let the words have any power.  I'm not sure if this would work, actually.  I have no idea.  I do know that getting all hysterical when someone calls you a name just lets people know how to push your buttons.  I'm a little clueless on what I really think right now, but maybe there's some sense in this post somewhere.
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Offline pmp6nl

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Re: Racism...
« Reply #10 on: May 09, 2008, 12:22:52 PM »
Often times people do stuff like that to get a reaction out of you.  Ignoring things at times may lead them to quit (since they dont get a reaction)... Of course, that does solve a whole other group of issues, like why we are having these issues in the first place.  But thats a sociology, anthropology, and psychology discussion and school is done this year ;)
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Offline Admiral Ackbar

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Re: Racism...
« Reply #11 on: May 11, 2008, 10:03:15 AM »
Seems related
Quote
A UND student, a member of a racial minority, was talking about the campus and the larger Grand Forks community:

“People have come to realize that a great deal of racism, bigotry and discrimination does exist here,” he said. “Achieving an understanding of the problem is the first big step and makes it easier to find proper solutions.”

A white student, the student body president, agreed that the larger community needed to be in a conversation about some troubling incidents. “People in North Dakota are inherently racist because of their lack of contact with (minorities) and their total ignorance of the racial problem,” he said.

And there was this cautious endorsement of dialogue from the mayor of Grand Forks: “There is an element of genuine concern on the part of the young people, and this is very good. They’ve given the community something to think about.”

The year was 1969.

We’ve been here before.
Continued

I think it's weird what we choose to worry about these days.  War, death, disease, famine (the four horsemen, actually) and we worry about skin color.

Also funny someone can't read:
Quote
I picked up the Grand Forks Herald dated Sunday May 11th and found out that our elected representative of UND said, “People in North Dakota are inherently racist abecause of their lack of contact with (minorities) and their total ignorance of the racial problem.” How could he say that? Doesn’t he know that most supposed hate crimes are hoaxes? Maybe he is full of total ignorance.
I see potential electoral gain here too because apparently Jamie Selzler, the North Dakota executive driector of the state Democratic-NPL Party has been involved a bit in trashing North Dakota values (not as bluntly though). If we get a few choice phrases from her trying to make North Dakota look like black people are regularly lynched here, that could make people angry enough to either get her kicked out of office or make republicans a stronger party this election (or both).
Hate crimes are hoaxes?
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Offline JakeJZG

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Re: Racism...
« Reply #12 on: May 11, 2008, 08:55:07 PM »
Everyone needs to just lay off and get over it.  Words are not damaging unless you allow them to damage you.

I usually identify myself as an American only and do not view myself as a racial group.  However for the purposes of this topic I will reveal that I am hispanic.  I have had my own racist, sexist, and otherwise terrible things said to me and about me over the years.

Did I run to mommy?
Did I get mad?

No, I ignored it or made a joke of it.  Case closed, every time.

I have absolutely no respect for those who complain or go to the authorities about it.  Handle it like an adult and amongst yourselves.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2008, 08:57:06 PM by JakeJZG »
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Offline Sal Atticum

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Re: Racism...
« Reply #13 on: May 15, 2008, 09:25:36 AM »
Copying more of this here before it disappears behind the paywall:
Quote from: Grand Forks Herald

Race debate
Chuck Haga
Herald Staff Writer - 05/11/2008

A UND student, a member of a racial minority, was talking about the campus and the larger Grand Forks community:

“People have come to realize that a great deal of racism, bigotry and discrimination does exist here,” he said. “Achieving an understanding of the problem is the first big step and makes it easier to find proper solutions.”

A white student, the student body president, agreed that the larger community needed to be in a conversation about some troubling incidents. “People in North Dakota are inherently racist because of their lack of contact with (minorities) and their total ignorance of the racial problem,” he said.

And there was this cautious endorsement of dialogue from the mayor of Grand Forks: “There is an element of genuine concern on the part of the young people, and this is very good. They’ve given the community something to think about.”

The year was 1969.

We’ve been here before.

Quote

In 1969, with the country deeply divided over the Vietnam War and beset by protest and racial unrest, tensions simmered in Grand Forks after the arrest and alleged mistreatment of a black UND student and complaints about discrimination in housing and employment.

Students crowded into meetings of the city’s new Human Rights Commission, created the previous year after the murder of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

One of the more outspoken participants was Fred Moore, president of UND’s Black Student Union. “The people here in North Dakota are scared,” he said, “and I can understand that. But because of their fear, should I stop saying and doing what I think is right and necessary?”

The late Hugo Magnusson, founder of the grocery store chain that bears his name, was mayor then, and he said Moore “scared me to such an extent with his language, I did not dare schedule the second commission meeting in a public building.”

But while “there is no question that we have problems concerning race relations in Grand Forks, generally speaking, I think our people will respond favorably to an educational approach, such as the commission is taking.”

Glenn Meidinger, a white UND student from Wishek, N.D., was student body president.

Racism in Grand Forks and throughout North Dakota was more covert than overt, he said in 1969. “I don’t think there are many businesses in the state, for example, which would refuse to serve a black. But it’s easy to tell a person he is neither liked nor wanted by the way you look at him and act toward him.

“North Dakotans have always considered themselves open-minded, nondiscriminating people,” Meidinger added, “because they’ve never had anyone to discriminate against — except for the Indians, and they’re boxed up on the reservations where they aren’t so noticeable.”
« Last Edit: May 16, 2008, 10:38:57 AM by Sal Atticum »
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Offline pmp6nl

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Re: Racism...
« Reply #14 on: May 15, 2008, 01:16:51 PM »
When I first read about the mention of what the SB president said I was a bit shocked, until I read on and realized it was 1969...

Quote
According to the city’s public information office, no written records remain at City Hall from the original Human Rights Commission or from one or two subsequent rights offices, the most recent of which may have operated out of the city attorney’s office and focused primarily on tenant-landlord issues.

The 1960s rights commission started out ambitiously, ordering reports on discrimination in housing and business, seeking financing for a black social center and trying to broaden its membership to include American Indians and migrant workers.

But it apparently lost steam and petered out in the early 1970s. A June 1971 report that survives on the Internet suggested that its singular achievement had been to publish a brochure about itself.

“Our subcommittee on housing has accomplished very little to date other than to conclude that there is a serious shortage of low-income housing in Grand Forks and that minority groups are most frequently the victims of this housing situation,” the report states. Also, “the committee on hearings and investigations has been inactive pending a decision concerning the proper function of the commission.”

Mayor Mike Brown is cool to the idea of reviving the panel, in part because of that uncertainty over the “proper function” of a commission with authority to hold hearings and conduct investigations.

“I don’t think we need a human rights commission,” he said. “For one thing, we’re a community of laws, and with a commission people might try to go beyond the laws.

“Do we need to address these situations? Yes. We were all saddened by these incidents. We were all offended. These were isolated incidents, but we need to talk about sensitivity and respect and make it clear that we don’t tolerate that kind of bullying in our community.”

The community was better represented, Brown said, by last weekend’s potluck picnic for refugees who have settled here.

“It was a wonderful celebration of our diversity,” he said, “reflecting the type of community we value.”

Prejudices, privileges

Jamie Selzler, a former 10-year resident of Grand Forks, sits on the board of the North Dakota Human Rights Coalition, a consortium of individuals and organizations dedicated to fighting discrimination. He also is executive director of the state Democratic-NPL Party.

“When five or six incidents occur like this, (a commission) could step in and make a statement — ‘This goes against North Dakota values’ — and it could look to see if they are part of a larger pattern,” Selzler said.

At least three North Dakota cities — Fargo, Bismarck and Dickinson — have active human rights commissions with formal ties to city government. An attempt in 2001 to establish a state commission failed, but the Legislature established a division of human rights within the Labor Department.

“So, a state entity exists, but it’s a little bit hidden,” said Mitch Marr, Fargo, executive director of the statewide coalition. “An independent commission that has some teeth” would be better, he said.

Selzler and Marr took part in discussions two years ago about reviving a Grand Forks human rights commission, and they said another push is likely in the fall when classes resume at UND.
I suppose I dont see anything wrong with establishing such an entity.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2008, 10:39:23 AM by Sal Atticum »
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Offline JakeJZG

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Re: Racism...
« Reply #15 on: May 15, 2008, 05:36:43 PM »
Wait, what entity? 
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Offline pmp6nl

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Re: Racism...
« Reply #16 on: May 17, 2008, 12:33:33 PM »
Wait, what entity? 
a Grand Forks human rights commission
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Offline JakeJZG

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Re: Racism...
« Reply #17 on: May 17, 2008, 07:09:43 PM »
Oh spare me.  This is perhaps the least intolerant and problematic place this side of Iceland.
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Offline pmp6nl

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Re: Racism...
« Reply #18 on: May 18, 2008, 09:17:21 PM »
That may be true in your opinion, but I am sure not all people feel that way.

Plus it really wouldnt hurt.
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Offline pmp6nl

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Re: Racism...
« Reply #19 on: May 20, 2008, 03:32:57 PM »
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Offline JakeJZG

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Re: Racism...
« Reply #20 on: May 23, 2008, 03:19:35 AM »
I don't care if all people feel that way.  Those that "feel" otherwise are merely feeling, and not observing the facts.

Let them go live in a city for a while.  Let them see real racism.
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Offline pmp6nl

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Re: Racism...
« Reply #21 on: May 23, 2008, 05:57:32 PM »
Feeling are very real to people are they not?  What facts?

Just because you havent experienced racism doesnt mean others havent.  Again as I said above, it really wouldnt hurt anything.
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