Velodrome

[Sal Atticum]

Just my notes to continue the conversation we were having at the licensing party.  For anyone new to this, we were just talking about how fitting for this area it would be to have an indoor velodrome, and then how we might fit one in the Old Ralph.  It may never happen, but I wanted to keep all the dream alive.

Please share your thoughts, but if you feel like shutting this down, try to think of it as an exercise in planning and contribute in a way that you think would be most helpful toward making this happen (in other words, grap a mop).

Pros
* Pro for us: solid training through the winter.
* Pro for us: cycling team facility year-round.
* Pro for us: hosting track races means $$$.
* Pro for us: REAL solid recruitment tool.
* Pro for UND: REAL solid recruitment tool.
* Pro for UND: the only university in the country with its own indoor velodrome
* Pro for UND: they make $$$ off races too.
* Pro for UND: turn a detriment (Old Ralph going unused) into a positive (see all pros) without demolition.
* Pro for UND: rent the space out for other events (weddings, alumni parties, etc.) when no practice/races.
* Pro for Grand Forks: economic impact WIN.
* Pro for Grand Forks: another thing to do inside during the winter.
* Pro for Grand Forks: another choice of physical activity.
* Pro for Grand Forks: another sporting event to watch.

Useful facts
* There are only two indoor wooden velodromes in the United States (Carson, California and Boulder, Colorado).  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_velodromes#United_States_of_America

* There are also only two indoor velodromes in Canada (London, Ontario and Burnaby, British Columbia).  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_velodromes#Canada

It might be useful to make a Google map of all the velodrome locations, just to see how many there really are: http://www.fixedgearfever.com/modules.php?name=Velodromes&op=map

* 333 m is the standard length, but tracks can range from 250 - 500 m.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Velodrome

* Did you know?  The original plan was for the wonderful rust color.  Fascinating.  Also, here is a photo of the inside.  http://siouxsports.com/hockey/history/oldengelstad.htm


To find out
* Calculate (or look up somewhere) how much area is needed for a track of various sizes.  How big a track could you fit in the Old Ralph, and how much seating could you have? See below posts.  It would be super tight.

* Business models for existing velodromes.  Do they survive on public subsidy, or use fees, or are they rented out for other events in between track practice and race times?

* Cost.  This is going to vary greatly, however I think that if we took the cost of an outdoor track (if we can fit one in the Old Ralph), it might be approximately the same (and maybe less, depending on how seating could be modified).

* What is the condition of the inside of the Old Ralph?  I can't imagine it's still pristine, I may have heard of them storing various equipment in there, even.  See below.

Alternatives
The Old Ralph could be a good fit if we had UND support and funding and a good business model (not saying we would be in charge of that, but the other half of having startup money, particularly from a benefactor, is having the ability to keep it up).  This would be an uphill battle, unfortunately, for several reasons: cycling is not an NCAA sport, so UND doesn't even recognize that it exists; both EERC and Athletics are already fighting over the future of that land (after demolition of the building); public support at the outset might be less than nil.

The simplest alternative would be the Alerus center, but I doubt this happening because putting a track in that space, while possible, would just make it awkward to have other events.  Adding on to the south side of the building would be awesome, but would add to construction costs (and they would be concerned about the loss of parking space).

The most likely alternative would be to build a new building somewhere, which would probably be outside town unless we got a really rich benefactor to buy more land along 42nd Ave (that land is notoriously overpriced, which is why developers have been avoiding it).  Being away from UND would be a drawback, but depending on the community feel for the project, it could go over well.  There are probably other possible locations in town, the old Leevers, for example, (that space is now being used) that might be large enough.

[Plantains]

I'm gonna be going to the one in London in a couple months. It's the steepest in the US (if not the world). I think it's something like 42 degrees in the corner or something inSANE like that.

[Plantains]

Also, most velos aren't just velos. It can easily be a "recreational" space. Track, volleyball, whatever...

[Mario]

That would be fantastic if this idea materialized one day... ALl you said Beek makes sense, at least to us, but we are a bit biased.

[Sal Atticum]

I'm gonna be going to the one in London in a couple months. It's the steepest in the US (if not the world). I think it's something like 42 degrees in the corner or something inSANE like that.

I think I would crash and burn on that, if only because I'd get up to speed and up high and then freak out.  Are you going to ride it, or are you just visiting?

Also, most velos aren't just velos. It can easily be a "recreational" space. Track, volleyball, whatever...

'Twould be sweet if, in the long run, they DID build a new sports center in that area and included a velodrome.  But they wouldn't do that unless they realized how awesome it would be, and they won't realize how awesome it would be until we show them.

[Plantains]

I plan on riding it. I haven't decided about racing it yet though... since i'd need to modify my one way for track racing...

[Sal Atticum]

Chase's neighbor mentioned to him that there used to be a velodrome. I dropped a line to Marilyn Hagerty to see if she knows anything about it.

[Plantains]

omg. Grand forks. lol.

[Sal Atticum]

I'm not sure if this is helpful to us or not:
http://www.standard.net/topics/opinion/2011/02/28/velodrome-needs-quietly-slip-away

[Riley]

I know this is a little soon for this whole idea and chances are slim... but if who ever is in charge of the Old Ralph would consider it I know quite a few other collegiate cycling teams who have used this http://www.refresheverything.com/how-it-works for funding of their projects.

[Sal Atticum]

That's great!  Thanks Jordan!

[Sal Atticum]

Old Ralph measurements via Google Earth: 100m length, 63m width (outside)
Alerus Arena measurements: 125m x 72m

Blaine measurements via Google Earth: 112m length, 59m width (not including stands)
http://www.nscsports.org/sports/cycling/ride/track_details.htm
250m distance around
43 degrees on turns, 15 degrees on straights

One of the two indoors tracks in Canada: http://www.burnabyvelodrome.ca/facility.php
Google Earth: 94m by 64m outside
200m around, 47 degrees! Holy buckets.
They have an inflatable roof.

Here's one in Atlanta they give the specs for:http://nadovich.com/chris/track/index.html
Measure Line Length: 250.00 m
Raceway Width: 7.2 meters
Max Banking: 42 degrees
Min Banking: 13 Degrees
Outside Dimensions: 115 x 55 meters
Infield Dimensions: 100 x 40 meters


Depending on how much junk there is in the OR, I don't know if we could fit one in there without it being scary steep.


Prices:
Screw the rest, I think this one is a good model: http://www.forestcityvelodrome.ca/track_history.php
Of course, it's still only 142 m around and has a bank of 50 degrees!
Less than $200,000, proposed, designed and built in four months!

$32 million Canadian
$40 million GBP
The one in Portland was reputedly around $500,000 (outdoors?).  An article from the planning stages.


Other:
- This guy has some ideas that sound good, but he might be a nutter, too.
- Read the rest of this thread.
- Read this too.
- Need support from as many local cyclists as possible, and those cyclists need to be affiliated with something.  It could be time (if enough effort is put forth over the summer) to revive the Grand Forks Cycling Club.
- Letters of support from clubs associated with existing velodromes (about how great the facility is) would be great to have when in the real planning stages (idea from link above).

After all that, I'm still excited for the idea but maybe it can't happen immediately.  The interim measures would be, in increasing measure of awesomeness, to 1) drive down to Blaine and train/race as much as possible this summer, 2) bring as many other people with as as we drove down to Blaine and trained/raced as much as possible, 3) --find a paved car track nearby (does Hillsboro have some sort of speedway?) and get them to let us train/race in the summer,--NM, would be too long and not banked enough, or 4) get a smaller amount of money and build an outdoor wooden track somewhere in town.

Any thoughts, discussion, or research help is welcome. 

[Sal Atticum]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kghtRevkUJA[/youtube]

[Plantains]

That mini drome was redic.

Alot of the dudes here run training races at Holland Speedway. http://hollandspeedway.com/

I haven't done it since I wasn't around... but for dimensional purposes?

The issue is going to simply lie in the "activism" of the concept. Terry is so aloof and seemingly disconnected to the cycling community that I'm not sure he would care or not care? The shop could become wholly vested in this process as they would obviously need to be the spearhead for distributing track bikes, but other than that... the town/city needs someone to "operate" the track. Building it, while a significant hurdle in terms of garnering support and such, pales in comparison to sustaining it. Especially since the track portion of it is really only useful for one thing (well... maybe rollerderby?).

WHo's going to manage it, run the races, schedule events, etc. And who's going to do this in 5 years? 10 years?

All of that said, I haven't read any of those threads you posted simply because I'm lazy, and very indirectly connected.

[Sal Atticum]

I'm sort of interested in the idea of a grass 'drome (with banked corners) but I have no idea what connections we would have to being able to get that done.  That said, the BMX club found land, so...

Who is that developer or contractor that Geiger is supposed to hook us up with?

Also, http://www.usacycling.org/news/user/story.php?id=6434

[Plantains]

I don't think there's any way to properly use a grass drome? What about the one on the bike path?

[Sal Atticum]

I don't think there's any way to properly use a grass drome? What about the one on the bike path?

ooooooh, we should go look at that.  You mean the holding pond by the cx course?  Might be pretty full right now, the river's up again.

[Alaska Unicyclist]

I think the dude owns Construction Engineers. We should talk to him about building an indoor velo if we are going to do something! at least a large shack we can all ride around in..

[Sal Atticum]

It's Craig Tweton.  So whatever he owns.  Nic says he might not throw a lot of money our way, but maybe Geiger knows him better than Nic.

[Sal Atticum]

From our friends up nord: http://mbcycling.ca/?p=3342

DC, the drome on the cx course is almost perfect!  The one thing stopping me from heading out there with a weedwhacker right now is that the incoming drainage sluice is too high up and blocks most of the slope.  I'm not sure if there is another one of those around somewhere that would be the right size but I'm keeping my eye out.

[Sal Atticum]

I think there is another one here, but it would have the same problems (47.914448°, -97.024485°).

[Sal Atticum]

Maybe we should just do this instead.  [youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_CgmOI_bN34[/youtube]

[Plantains]

SANDERS! BUILD A VELODROME OR RISK FACING THE PENALTIES!

[Sal Atticum]

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national-cycling-association-unveils-plan-velodrome-bmx-park-kingsbridge-armory-article-1.971978

It would cost $700,000 to build a temporary velodrome in the Kingsbridge Armory and put on free clinics for local youth next spring, Simes said, vowing to get the cash from private sponsors.

I still don't understand the hoopla over six-day races though.  Why don't US velodromes focus on getting people into the sport rather than immediately jumping into wanting to hold six-day races?

[Sal Atticum]

I'm bringing my wish for a velodrome public.  That is most of it.

Meanwhile, it apparently costs $7 million to build a new hockey rink in Grand Forks.  I wish we could get people half as excited about cycling (a pursuit that can be learned as a child and practiced to all degrees for a person's entire life, is good exercise, reduces traffic congestion, and is entertaining to watch) as they are about hockey.  I'm not dumping on hockey, but maybe some of you understand the frustration.

http://www.grandforksherald.com/event/article/id/229291/

Advocates for adding a $7 million hockey arena to Grand Forks’ landscape are in the educational stage. The start of the arm-twisting stage is uncertain.

“The big picture is that we have to inform the public that there is a need first,” said Gary Harris, the Grand Forks Park District Foundation’s developmental director.

“That awareness phase will go on until we think we have saturated the population about what this is all about.”

It’s about securing more ice time for hockey players and figure skaters, Harris said. That message has been given to three service groups, with eight more on his schedule.

After the presentations and before the public campaign, the district hopes to sell the arena’s naming rights for $2 million. Soliciting pledges are at least “months away,” Park District Director John Staley said.

Already promised is $2.5 million from the Grand Forks Blue Line Club, a youth hockey organization that gets most of its money from charitable gaming. The Blue Line Club already has its name on an arena near Red River High School.

With the naming rights money and the Blue Line Club pledge, another $2.5 million would be needed from a public campaign.

“We can’t build until we get it all pledged,” Staley said.

An ice time need

Harris’ pitch includes comparing Grand Forks’ skating facilities to two other so-called hockey towns.

“Roseau has three rinks and 250 kids and hosts 10 youth tournaments a season,” he said. “East Grand Forks has three rinks, 400 kids and six tournaments. Grand Forks has four rinks, 1,500 kids and one tournament.”

The $7 million facility would be located near Choice Health and Fitness on the 41 acres owned by the Park District on the far south end. It would have two ice sheets under its roof, with each having seating for 500. The facility would be the home to youth hockey and figure skating competitions on weekends.

“One 24-team tournament on a weekend can bring more than $310,000 into our economy,” Harris said. “Besides the need for more tournaments, there is a need for more places to practice.”

The arena will have eight dressing rooms, with $50,000 commitments for naming rights for three of them.

Hockey has its backers

The fund-raising effort comes on the heels of raising $28 million in donations, sponsorships and leases to remodel the YMCA and build Choice Health & Fitness, which is expected to be ready by Sept. 1.

Staley said it isn’t too soon to start another campaign after the Choice effort, which took four years.

“There is still a lot of money out there and people who are more motivated toward hockey than health and fitness,” Staley said.

He said fund-raising may take two years or more.

“You don’t want to draw any lines in the sand for a timetable,” he said. “That can be a death knell. You start it, see how people are interested and go from there.”

[Sal Atticum]

Oops, I forgot this would get posted to Facebook as a new thread.  Rather than rehash some of this idea, if I have time I'll go through the thread on the team board and make sure everything is okay to post out here.

EDIT: Threads merged.

[Sal Atticum]

...and then some days I feel like this guy: http://www.twincities.com/stpaul/ci_20327390/velodrome-idea-lowertown-gaining-little-traction

[Sal Atticum]

This (http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/20/nyregion/40-million-pledged-for-brooklyn-bridge-park.html?_r=1) is twenty times (or more) what we would need to build an indoor velodrome in Grand Forks.  I guess we would just have to use the rest of it for operational costs for the next fifty years.

[Alaska Unicyclist]

so true...

[Alaska Unicyclist]

beek, didn't you know? It's all about cars!

[Sal Atticum]

You know, the fairgrounds would be another good place for a velodrome.  Right next to the dirt car-racing track.

Just had this news from DerKruser:

2 yrs go there were 2 racing surfaces looking for a home & needing $500k seeding investment to get placed.

now there are zero. Lots of missed opportunities.

I posted something to the mcf board, not really expecting anything to happen, but was told that 500 ppl (cont'd)

@ $1k apiece was nuts. They were quite obvs right... Cyclists are cheap

[Sal Atticum]

http://2wheeldata.wordpress.com/2012/08/21/velodrome-track-diagram/

[Sal Atticum]

For half the cost of new turf for the football team (being donated by Altru) we could build a velodrome.

http://www.grandforksherald.com/event/article/id/243902/

[Sal Atticum]

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=10&ved=0CFgQFjAJ&url=http%3A%2F%2Fdavidandtim.com%2Fuploads%2FTim-172-Velodrome.pdf&ei=aGQ_ULCmBcjs2AX294HQDA&usg=AFQjCNEuERhwBl6nrvJb07CKMJ6SD1Pr-Q&cad=rja

[OUWxGuesser]

where on earth did you find that??? 

[Sal Atticum]

It came up in a Google search, I have no idea of the provenance.

[Sal Atticum]

Just an update, I haven't had a great deal of time to look into this idea in the last year or so.  I still think it could be a great draw for people looking for a winter activity (riding, racing, or watching), maybe could be joined onto another project (like a hockey rink) as long as the cost wasn't blow completely out of proportion (remember, we could build an indoor track for less than $500,000 according to this guy).  It would be a draw for Winnipeg cyclists year-round and for the Twin Cities during the winter.

Again in other news, the Ralph Engelstad Foundation has pledged $500,000 (matching required) to the $7 million hockey rink mentioned above.  Just saying that if you have the right people involved, they know the people with money and stuff will happen...

[Sal Atticum]

http://clevelandvelodrome.org/ - just got going this August!

Phase I funding plan: http://clevelandvelodrome.org/our-supporters/
Phase II funding plan: http://clevelandvelodrome.org/phase-ii-become-a-donor-or-sponsor/

[Sal Atticum]

Lookee, the Vandedrome is for sale again!
http://www.fixedgearfever.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=.%2Fviewtopic&p=73499#73499

[Sal Atticum]

The city of Des Plains, Illinois (north of Chicago) is looking to build an indoor velodrome: http://www.dailyherald.com/article/20120621/business/706219957/



They have about the same number of people as Grand Forks, granted they are part of a larger metropolitan area.  I wonder why the lead with $2 million when the starting price could be quite a bit lower.

[Sal Atticum]

http://grist.org/cities/high-end-european-style-bike-tracks-the-next-big-thing-in-the-hood/

[Sal Atticum]

Track is not dead: https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/pennsylvania/articles/2017-04-07/world-cycling-league-albright-to-build-indoor-velodrome